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 Post subject: Re: Beneath the Planet of the Apes
PostPosted: Sat Mar 09, 2013 1:31 am 
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When I was a kid I didn't care for ESCAPE FROM THE POTA much because it didn't have a lot of apes. However, I now consider it probably the best in quality after the original. It's not my personal favorite, but it's a good sci fi film with some heart.


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 Post subject: Re: Beneath the Planet of the Apes
PostPosted: Sat Mar 09, 2013 3:08 am 
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I kind of wish they could have sprung a few extra bucks for the sound department in the third entry, because that "mama" sound that the new born child (Caesar) makes is obviously taken from the "doll that talks!" in the original Planet of the Apes.

If it would have been made today I'd just take it as a cool reference, but I don't think that's what they had in mind when they made that decision.

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 Post subject: Re: Beneath the Planet of the Apes
PostPosted: Sat Mar 09, 2013 3:19 am 
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IMO, they aren't the same sounds. They've never sounded alike to me!

This is something I know you didn't mean to say, but it reminded me --- I know that the decreasing budget is often talked about these days when it came to the sequels, but to the best of my knowledge I don't remember anyone really focusing on that until the 1998 BEHIND THE POTA documentary. While growing up as a kid, I never thought CONQUEST looked cheap, for example (even though that's usually all some fans dwell on today).

I've always thought they did pretty good with what they had. In ESCAPE, for example, the story didn't call for anything more extravagant in the effects department. And of course, we know that today's over-inflated mega-million$ CGI mind-numbers aren't one tenth as effective as the older movies were. :)


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 Post subject: Re: Beneath the Planet of the Apes
PostPosted: Sat Mar 09, 2013 4:19 am 
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Oh my, I just did a youtube search for the clip and my memory definitely failed me (it has been 5 years since I last saw it, so that'll be my official excuse :lol:) I remembered wrong what me and my friend commented on during that scene last time we saw it. What bugged us was the repeatedness of the line, not that it was recycled material, and that they even seemed to loop the expression on the ape's face as he said "mama".

Here's the video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aEUWkI98kQw

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 Post subject: Re: Beneath the Planet of the Apes
PostPosted: Sat Mar 09, 2013 2:03 pm 
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Yes, the end re-running of the chimp saying "Ma-Ma" is poor. They didn't have CGI then (thank goodness in most cases, otherwise we may have gotten cartoon apes instead of Roddy and Kim!). But actually, in this case some slight CG trickery making the baby's mouth movements might have helped.

Call me crazy, but there is still something about the way ESCAPE ends with that back-and-forward shot (and then goes to black credits with us still hearing the chimp) that is suitably chilling!


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 Post subject: Re: Beneath the Planet of the Apes
PostPosted: Sun Mar 10, 2013 5:08 am 
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No, not crazy - it was chilling to me, as well. It shouldn't be since it's just a baby-like voice saying "mama" - so why is it? In theory, a viewer has already seen the first two Apes films at the time of seeing the 3rd film's conclusion, so the scenarios of the earlier films are lingering in the back of the viewer's mind. In theory, a future descendant of this baby chimp will be mistreating poor Chuck a.k.a. Taylor many years into the future, among many other things :ddape: (like the complete annihilation of Earth!).

PS: yes, I also noted the clumsy trickery of duplicating the baby chimp's movement at the end; it didn't work well, tsk-tsk.


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 Post subject: Re: Beneath the Planet of the Apes
PostPosted: Sun Mar 10, 2013 9:30 pm 
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Chrysagon wrote:
In theory, a future descendant of this baby chimp will be mistreating poor Chuck a.k.a. Taylor many years into the future, among many other things :ddape: (like the complete annihilation of Earth!).


That's the theory, and it's why the chimps are feared in ESCAPE and put to death. As a lifelong APES freak (and I'm sorry if this sounds like I'm being a "know it all"; I don't mean to sound that way), I have spent a lot of time analyzing all the films (and TV show, etc.).

So I'd like to suggest that it's not necessarily a given that the events will continue right up to the way PLANET OF THE APES unfolded. The best way I've found to appreciate this series is, once Zira and Cornelius go back in time to Earth, they are now in another timeline. The world has another crack at trying to avoid the future that came to pass in PLANET. And I think this is a very fascinating aspect of this franchise, and it's unfortunate that the sequels get underrated, IMO.


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 Post subject: Re: Beneath the Planet of the Apes
PostPosted: Sun Mar 10, 2013 10:10 pm 
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Joe Karlosi wrote:
...I'd like to suggest that it's not necessarily a given that the events will continue right up to the way PLANET OF THE APES unfolded. The best way I've found to appreciate this series is, once Zira and Cornelius go back in time to Earth, they are now in another timeline. The world has another crack at trying to avoid the future that came to pass in PLANET. And I think this is a very fascinating aspect of this franchise, and it's unfortunate that the sequels get underrated, IMO.
Yes, in this theory, Zira and Cornelius have created another timeline (or arrived in a different timeline); this is also borne out by the sequels, Conquest & Battle, where events in regard to apes taking over seem to have been accelerated thanks to Caesar. In other words, in the original timeline that we saw in the first 2 films with Taylor (Heston), events in regard to apes taking over took place over the course of hundreds of years. It happened slowly. With Caesar in the mix, events happened over the course of decades, not centuries.

However, my own take on it is that the Zira and Cornelius in Escape are not the exact same chimps whom we saw in the first two films. The Zira and Cornelius in Escape are from a slightly different future than the one we saw in the first two films -- a similar future but still different. They also knew Taylor, of course, but they also had knowledge of their past history that was not evident in the first two films. In the original Planet of the Apes, Cornelius had no knowledge about mankind once ruling the Earth, only hints that he picked up just before the film ends. However, in Escape, Cornelius speaks of all these details about how apes overthrew mankind, including some ape named Aldo who said "no" to humans.

I think that the Zira and Cornelius in Escape come from a future when the ape society was more advanced than the one we saw in the original film and Beneath. This explains a genius like Milo and their ability to recover Taylor's spacecraft and make it work. It just doesn't seem like something these chimps could do in the first two films. Now, the Zira and Cornelius in Escape had also met Taylor (or a version of Taylor) in their future and events probably happened in a similar fashion as we witnessed in the original film. But, the ape society in that future was slightly different, more advanced - and with detailed knowledge of the planet's past history.

Of course, all of this can be ascribed to clumsy and/or hasty writing by the screenwriters, who didn't get all their ducks in order... :ddape:


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 Post subject: Re: Beneath the Planet of the Apes
PostPosted: Fri May 10, 2013 11:13 pm 
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Here's an interesting trailer for Beneath (also, maybe Thorn can replace the defunct one in the first post with this one). Note how it suggests that Heston as Taylor is still the star of the film, with Franciscus mentioned only later, as if in a secondary role to Heston:
______________


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 Post subject: Re: Beneath the Planet of the Apes
PostPosted: Fri May 10, 2013 11:47 pm 
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Done! Thanks for the heads up.

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